


Categorical dumbasses

by Tiili97



Category: Sanders Sides (Web Series)
Genre: ...yet, Gen, Hobbes more like ho that's bs, No one is good at emotions but there is an attempt at open communication, Philosophical Discussions, Swearing, The rest of the sides are only mentioned, debate, good honest debating, i'm venting my beef with some certain philosophers here you'll probably see which ones, it's shippy if you squint but it's not meant to be, lying, ummmm
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2018-08-11
Updated: 2018-08-11
Packaged: 2019-06-25 22:44:46
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 3,145
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/15650430
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Tiili97/pseuds/Tiili97
Summary: Logan is intrigued by Deceit's apparent knowledge of philosophy and decides to invite him to a friendly debate.Deceit says yes.Honestly, that's about as far as Logan thought he'd come, but as they talk, he discovers sides (Pun absolutely not intended) of Deceit he had never imagined.





	Categorical dumbasses

**Author's Note:**

> Look I don't know. It still feels pretty stilted to me but I'm beginning to suspect that's just how Logan is as a character. Just... take it.

Logan stood outside of Deceit’s door, hand raised to knock. It was early evening, Thomas relaxing with his 39th rewatch of “the office” bloopers and Logic had officially clocked out for the evening. This left Logan free to pursue other interests: reading, watching the stars, or preparing a schedule that would ultimately be ignored by the other sides and Thomas both.

Instead of doing any of these normal, scheduled activities, however, Logan had approached the door that had recently appeared in the light’ sides part of the mindscape. He knew why, objectively. A small part was still screaming about what an absolutely awful idea this was, but Logan had elected to ignore it.

Logan had the itch. He assumed it was part of Thomas being the theatre person that he was – even Logan, who made sure to make his disdain for professional make-believe quite clear, was affected. Some nights, he could not simply pursue knowledge and logic through books and quiet contemplation. Some nights, he needed quick thinking, words as clear as they were fast, blood pumping, stakes raised. Sometimes, Logan needed a debate.

And considering recent events, there was really only one person to go to.

With all of this in mind, Logan finally brought his closed fist down and knocked three times, evenly spaced, before returning to a resting position.

For a moment, nothing happened. Then there was a loud, audible _thud_ of something body-shaped hitting the ground. A few slow, sloping footsteps.

Finally, the door opened. Deceit looked…. Like he had spent the better part of the day wrapped in the blanket he was currently wearing like a cape, hair on end and in much more casual dress than he usually appeared.

“Oh, Logan. To what do I owe the _pleasure_ of your company?” The sarcasm was thick enough that even Logan could feel it. Nevertheless, he carried on.

“Deceit, I have a proposal for you. After you… spirited invocation of Kant’s philosophy during the last video, I have come to realize you seem to know your way around philosophy. Is this true?”

Deceit blinked, slow and somehow, infuriatingly, condescendingly.

“No, Logan. I just made that up on the spot. Is this going anywhere?” Deceit looked like he was about to close the door, so Logan spoke as fast as he could.

“Wanna have a philosophical debate on the nature of lying?”

Silence. Logan wanted to sink through the floor – metaphorically, not literally. He had planned to soften Deceit up a bit first, compliment him, introduce the concept and only then ask. He knew how to have a Successful Social Interaction. He’d read about it. In big, important books. This was… the opposite of that. No way was Deceit going to –

“Nope, that sounds like a terrible idea,” Deceit declared, and it took Logan’s ranting brain a moment to realize he was not, actually, saying no.

Logan had no words. A terrible start to any debate.

The silence stretched until Logan got his thoughts together again and by that point there was a terrible, half-hidden look of hurt on Deceit’s face, a sneer not quite managing to cover it.

“Well, if it’s all a joke to you I’m _absolutely_ going to stick around and listen – “

“No! I mean, no, it wasn’t, I just… did not expect you to agree so quickly. You always seem so…” _Mean. Unwilling to cooperate. Unfriendly._ “introverted,” Logan finished awkwardly. Deceit seemed to creep even further back at that, teeth bared in an unfriendly grin.

“Yes, because you all have been _so welcoming.”_

That… Logan swallowed and looked down. It had been months since Deceit was revealed and while he was, in a way, a light side they were all… wary. (Well. All of them except Patton. His Strange Slimy Son was subject to all the fatherly love the other sides also enjoyed.) Virgil was especially worried, and Roman, who had come to trust Virgil’s hunches almost implicitly, made sure to always be between the two of them.

But it had been months. Nothing had changed. Perhaps… it was time. Logan looked up, just catching Deceit’s gaze before he closed the door.

“You… are correct.” Hearing Logan (almost) admit to having done something wrong, Deceit stopped. “But as you now, by definition, is a “light side”, perhaps it is time we… attempt to communicate.”

Deceit squinted.

“…Did Patton put you up to this?”

Logan blinked, confused.

“Patton? Encouraging debate? Please. He would sooner have us all sit in a circle singing songs than discuss things in an orderly and adult manner.” Patton was an incredible and important part of Thomas, but healthy debate was about as far from his comfort zone as one could come. Deceit seemed to realize this, as well, a snort of laughter escaping him as he no doubt tried to imagine the situation Logan had described.

“That _doesn’t_ sound like him at all.” They shared a look of commiseration, the quiet for a moment comfortable and still.

“…so? Are you still disinclined?”

Deceit clicked his tongue and looked away. Logan didn’t know whether he was actually unsure or simply trying to frustrate him as much as possible. Either would be possible.

“… _yes_.”

Logan barely held himself back from a very undignified fistpump.

“Brilliant! Let us move to a more fitting space.” With that, he snapped his fingers and they were both transported into his space – the same debate room in which he had attempted to rid Virgil of his cognitive distortions, slightly dusty from disuse. Deceit looked around with an amused look on his face. That was, until he began speaking.

“Woah, specs, you really don’t have a sense for interior decorat – _what.”_ Deceit clapped a hand over his mouth. His voice was different – it was as if a layer was missing, his words not quite as honeyed, not quite as beguiling. Logan simply fixed his glasses and met Deceit’s glare head-on.

“You are in my area of the mindscape. Lying is difficult, albeit not impossible.” Especially if one was the very personification of lies. This did not seem to appease Deceit, however.

“ _Take me back right now Logan I swear.”_

The upset tone made Logan pause. Deceit rarely showed any true emotions, for obvious reasons. But this… He had hunched up slightly, hands fisted at his side, looking like he wasn’t sure whether to run or fight.

“You are quite upset about this. Why is that?” Logan asked, voice gentle. Deceit hissed at him.

Logan blinked. So that was where Virgil had gotten it from. Nevertheless, he had to convince Deceit. He took a moment to flip through his flashcards, ignoring how Deceit rolled his eyes.

“Please, can you… _take a chill pill?_ If we are going to have a good debate, your proclivity for lying will only slow everything down and confuse it. Clear and concise communication is key –“

“Yeah, you’re just trying to make sure you’ll win.” Deceit broke off, voice full of scorn. Logan huffed at being interrupted, but at least Deceit was slowly moving out of his defensive posture. And now, Logan understood what the problem was.

“It seems you’ve gotten this backwards, Deceit.” He tried. Deceit looked at him with suspicion.

“How?”

“Winning is not the goal here, Deceit. You and I have different opinions that are rooted in our very beings. You lie to protect Thomas. I incite him to be logical in all things. That is not about to change. This is simply an… exercise, if you will, to stretch our debating muscles.” Logan tried to explain, but could feel his own words falling short as Deceit only snorted derisively.

“The irony in you making a training simile is delicious enough that I can almost swallow that bullshit. Are you for real? No winner? We both know someone is going to come out on top and if I’m not allowed to use my skills, the odds are clearly in your favour.” He replied, voice bitter. Perhaps… perhaps he truly believed Logan was only doing this to ‘get one over him’, so to say? Logan had to disprove that train of thought immediately.

“The rule against lying applies to me as well. For that matter, you have a proven ability to know when someone is lying, even to themselves. Am I doing that right now, when I say I truly am not looking to “win” any arguments today?”

A moment of silence.

“…No.” Something relaxed in Deceit’s posture when he admitted this – hopefully, saying it out loud had stopped some sort of cognitive distortion that prevented him from seeing the matter clearly.

“Right then. I believe we are ready?” Perhaps now they could finally get on with the true purpose of this. Logan was doing his best not to vibrate with impatience as Deceit thought it over one final time.

“…Fuck it, fine. Can’t hurt.”

Logan’s entire demeanour changed. He snapped once more and they were suddenly seated in twin arm chairs, head to head. Relaxed, but still competitive. He fixed his glasses, catching Deceit in a fierce stare. Deceit smiled lazily back at him, no trace of his earlier doubt.

“So, Deceit. You claim lying is morally correct. Care to back that claim up?”

“Well…” Deceit rolled the ‘l’ for a fair few seconds before smirking. “Let us start from the beginning, hmm? Protagoras, famous Greek philosopher, argued that morality is a matter of values. If I think something is the right thing to do, it is so – for me. And if I think lying is morally correct, well, then that’s just the truth for me. Morality is subjective and there is no one right answer for every situation.”

Deceit sat back, obviously pleased with his presentation. Logan rolled his eyes. This was child’s play. Deceit wasn’t even trying yet.

“Yes, but that just means that everything is pointless. You’re courting nihilism here, Deceit,” he said sharply, catching the other’s eye. “Plus, IF morality is inherently a matter of what humans chose is “right” there will also always be cases where lying is wrong. It all depends on the context, which is where Protagoras falls flat. We can debate this for eternity, with examples of times lying is right against examples of times lying is wrong. It’s pointless, let us move on to _actual_ debate, hmmm?”

Deceit raised a single eyebrow. Logan didn’t break eye contact. If Deceit thought that a philosophical curveball meant to incite endless debate on the minutiae of contextual morality would stop him, he had another thing coming. 

“Well, if you are looking for a clear-cut rule, I believe utilitarianism has your back?” Deceit replied, a look of faux-innocence on his face that didn’t fool Logan for a second. At least he had given up on trying to push Protagoras on him. “Oh wait, it does not, because staying truthful all the time _hurts people,_ Logan.” He gestured between them. “It can hurt us. If by lying you can increase the net happiness in the world by, say, making your friend believe you accidentally missed their recital, or by letting your senile old grandma believe you’re her long-dead sister, then lying is the right thing to do.”

Logan rolled his eyes. They were falling back on emotional manipulation this early?

“Those are all touching good stories, but morally wrong actions like murder can increase net happiness, too.” He pointed out. Deceit made an affronted noise.

“Who would – “

“I am sure I could name a few, but in the interest of keeping this debate non-dated, I will give you fifteen seconds to consider.”

Silence.

Deceit huffed. “….Fair enough, I see your point. Not even I condone murder.” The last bit was muttered, as if admitting to any kind of moral standards would ruin his image. Logan decided not to push it, instead forging on with new enthusiasm.

 “Exactly! This is where rules utilitarianism picks up the slack. If the rule is always followed, it will bring more net happiness. If “lying is right” was followed, society would collapse in on itself as no one could trust anyone else. It would be Hobbes “natural state” all over again.”

Speaking of Hobbes…” Deceit sat up straight, eyes glittering.

Logan scoffed. “Oh, you have no support there: Lying would clearly break the social contract that binds humanity according to Hobbes, you have no claim in his philosophy.”

Of course, Deceit had to push it, waving a pointed finger around. “But I can point out that his model falls flat from the simple fact that I’d be in charge if his theory was correct, are you kidding me? It’s a classic prisoner’s dilemma except I will win _every time_ because everyone else are following the rules. If society is built on social contracts being selfish is the winner’s way, and I win! Hah!” He struck a dramatic pose that reminded Logan of Roman for a second. He took a moment to consider what Deceit had just said, a slight frown on his face.

 “You… didn’t even prove anything. In fact, I think you just weakened your own stance.” He pointed out with a bewildered tone. Deceit shrugged, unrepentant.

 “Yeah maybe but come on you gotta roast Hobbes at every opportunity.”

Logan chuckled, then coughed, trying to hide the laughter. This was a serious debate, damnit.

“An excellent point,” He managed to croak out, desperately ignoring Deceit’s amused look. “Where were we?”

Deceit didn’t even have to pause. “Rule utilitarianism.”

“Right, thank you.” Logan nodded.

 “my pleasure.”

 “Anyway… Rule utilitarianism leans pretty close to Kant, and – “

Deceit interrupted him with a clap, causing Logan to start.

“Woah! Goodnight everybody!” he exclaimed, perfectly imitating Patton’s voice for a moment before cackling.

Logan rubbed the bridge of his nose with two fingers. He should have known.

 “As I was _saying_ ,” he said loudly, interrupting Deceit’s laughter, “The Kant theory of the categorical imperative supports the same theory – that if the entire world followed your “lying is morally correct” imperative, then the world would fall into chaos. Therefore, it simply cannot be logical.”

He sat back with a smug smile. Let the damn snake try and argue Kant, he can’t’nt – couldn’t – damnit.

Deceit, however, didn’t look worried in the least.

“Pocket calcu-late, Logan, Kant’s theories fall through when put into reality. Let’s say a known murderer came to your door – “

 

Darnit. Logan had entirely forgotten about that. How could he have been so blind?

“Yes, yes we’ve already heard this example, I know what you are trying to say.” He sighed. There went his perfect defense – he should have known Deceit would try and bring in real-life examples, and that one was a classic.

It was Deceit’s turn to look smug. “Not feeling like wrestling with Kant’s defense?”

He really, truly didn’t. “We would have to sit here and define terms for an hour at the very least and I while I do not usually object to –“ Logan choked off, voice gone in an instant before he could continue speaking.

Deceit only raised one eyebrow. Logan sighed, defeated.

“No. I don’t feel like it.” The anti-lying field in the space affected him as well, even if it were lies he desperately wanted to believe as well. But no matter how logical one might be, it would require one far stronger than him to actually _enjoy_ Kant’s theories. Logan doubted even the man himself did.

“Not got anything else to say, then, glasses? Because it seems as if I win, then.” Deceit’s voice cut through his thoughts, and Logan quickly shook his head.

“Oh no, I still have my closing statement.” He cleared his throat, trying to recall the exact words he had pondered earlier today. “The issue remains that lying is and always has been one of the greatest discussion points of philosophers through the ages. No matter how we want to define morality, surely a morally good concept would not be so hotly debated?”

Deceit didn’t even blink before he responded, a tinge of frustration in his voice.

“And surely, a morally evil concept would not be debated as such, either. No one is trying to argue for a good time to kill puppies, after all. Can lying truly be so bad if it still stumps philosophers to try and define it?”

Logan had no response to that.

 “It does appear as if lying is truly situationally decided.” He finally admitted, slowly and thoughtfully.

Deceit rolled his eyes. “Yes, as I’ve _been saying from the start with Protagoras_ , you foolish dummy.”

Logan sneered at that. “He is a wimp and you know it. I can think of at least one form of lying that is always bad,” He added hotly, mind running a mile a minute.

Deceit leaned back in his chair. “oh, and what would that be?”

Logan raised a finger imperiously, still high on the feeling of a good debate. “Lying to yourself about your own identity and morals. Wouldn’t you agree?”

Only silence met him. Logan slowly realized what he had said. It wasn’t that he didn’t mean it – but the way he had phrased it…

 “Deceit?” Logan finally asked. Deceit’s face was blank.

I’m out. Good debate, Logan.” He snapped his fingers and suddenly they were both back in the mindscape, Logan almost falling over from the quick transition. Deceit already had his back turned to him, heading back into his room.  “The end was especially _delightful_.”

Logan stumbled forward, stepping halfway into Deceit’s room.   
 “Deceit, wait! I – I apologize. I was too – too excited by the debate, I didn’t realize – “ Logan didn’t know what to say, and wasn’t that a laugh? He was _Logic_ , he was supposed to always know what to say, he -

Deceit had paused, looking at him intently. “Are you admitting to a… _mistake_ , Logic?” His tone was wary, untrusting – Logan knew with startling clarity he would not believe any reassurances he could give. That was, unless…

 “…No.”

Deceit blinked, baffled.

“I can literally feel you lying, you know that right?” He said, carefully wording it as a question to not get anything confused. Logan smiled. He had gotten through.

“No.”

Deceit shook his head, but hadn’t moved. Logan breathed out slowly, counting to seven in his head, before continuing. He felt out every word carefully before speaking it.

 “It was… hasty of me. Not well-thought out at all. I will have to… revise it. And perhaps return for another debate? If you would be amenable?” He bit his lip, arguing with himself for a moment, before finally adding “I haven’t – it was. Very enjoyable.”

Logan stepped back, out of Deceit’s doorway, to give him space to both literally and metaphorically shut the door on him. If he wanted. Logan hoped he didn’t.

Deceit smiled slowly.

“That sounds like an absolutely awful idea, Logan.”

Logan breathed out, unable to hide the honest smile on his own face.

 “I’ll see you then.”

**Author's Note:**

> I spent a lot of time researching philosophy for this one which honestly? the best part of writing this, no contest. Almost turned shippy as the Logan in my brain had an entirely too strong reaction to Deceit making fun of Hobbes, namely make-outs. But that kind of ruined the flow of the debate, so it had to go. Might write a "What-if" scenario one day. 
> 
> I'm out


End file.
